Episode 018 Transcript:
Growth Hacking Mastery

When it comes to Growth Hacking, there are only a few people we turn to for amazing advice that works across the board for different goals.

Whether you’re in SaaS, eCommerce, or lead gen, you’ll be excited to learn that the recipes this expert will share will all help you hit your goals faster.

Our Solo Guest:

Sean Ellis: CEO/Founder @ GrowthHackers.com

Sean Ellis is author of Hacking Growth (published in 16 languages), the host of The Breakout Growth Podcast, keynote speaker and runs workshops around the world to implement a cross-functional approach to growth he calls growth hacking (a term he coined in 2010).

Sean helped to bring five companies to market as VP Marketing/Growth that went on to exceed billion-dollar valuations including Dropbox, LogMeIn, Eventbrite, Uproar, and Lookout in addition to launching and selling two businesses as Founder/CEO (Qualaroo and GrowthHackers.com).

Sean has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, WIRED, Fast Company, Inc, and newspapers around the world as well as on MSNBC.

Nuggets Dropped x 69

“The only way to drive sustainable growth is to deliver value.”

Growth Hacking Mastery With Sean Ellis

Johnathan: Alright, Sean, a friend that I actually met once in a parking garage. Do you remember that? When we first said hi to each other?

Sean: I do! I do and I remember thinking, who the heck was that guy? And I think I literally spent a week or two trying to track down, who was it that I ran into?

Johnathan: Yeah, still a nobody, but I remember we were in a parking garage, didn’t know that your office, which was Qualaroo back then was like right next to ours. And I saw you and I was wearing an Unbounce shirt and I think you told…

Telling me like, “Should I know this guy from Unbounce?” and completely threw you off even further so… But we’re neighbors, you’re in Newport Beach.

Sean: Yeah I definitely know who you are now.

Johnathan: Good, I’m glad I’ve made some progress in the last couple of years. That’s good to hear.

Sean: You definitely did!

Johnathan: So everybody listening and watching, I have Sean Ellis on the show. He is the founder of GrowthHackers, doing a lot of things right now. I know you go speaking a lot as well. You’ve been international for a bit.

We’re gonna be talking about obviously your favorite topic, growth hacking. Where do you even begin when you have to explain to family members during Thanksgiving what it is you do.

Sean: At this point I try not to even talk to family members, but, no I’m joking.

Johnathan: It’s worse than politics it sounds like, yeah.

Sean: Thanksgiving is not that bad, but if they ask what a growth hacking is, I’ll tell them that. But most of the time these days I’m just telling them I’m on a learning journey.

And you know, I think a lot of people kind of think that I’m out there, teaching people and running workshops to teach people. But every time I engage with a different company, I’m learning so much, that for me is really the fun part.

Johnathan: That’s awesome!

Sean: But yeah, when someone asks what growth hacking is I can explain that as well. I assume people have probably a pretty good idea, but I’ll give you a quick overview if you want.

Johnathan: Let’s do it.

Sean: Okay. So for me, growth hacking is really, that test learned process that any good marketer uses.

So, it’s really based on a scientific method for anyone who’s not kinda doing the test learned process, that you observe what’s going on, you look for opportunities to drive improvement, you come up with hypotheses and you run tests.

And ideally you’re gonna prioritize the things that you think have the highest potential impact for the effort that you’re putting into them. So that again, that describes pretty good marketing in general.

I think where it gets challenging with growth hacking is that we’re looking to do it across all of the levels of growth and not just those that are generally controlled by a marketing team. So when you start looking at, how do you accelerate value? Everyone in the business plays a role in driving value or at least most people do.

And so it’s testing across that full product journey and trying to make it so the customers come back more often, you can monetize them better. And that’s where it gets really tough, especially in bigger companies where these teams may not be used to working together.

And so I could go into a ton of challenges, but that’s on a high level what growth hacking is all about.

Johnathan: So to separate marketing and growth hacking you kinda mentioned already, marketing is mostly focused on let’s say acquisition, right? And while growth hacking can do that, it also focuses on retention.

Let’s say LTVs NPS like customer experience can even be a part of growth hacking.

Sean: Right!

Johnathan: ‘Cause it’s cross departmental. One of the challenges that I know ’cause I’ve been consuming your content for years now is, you talk a lot about silos and you talk a lot about the challenges of these teams working hand in hand to execute correctly and learn quickly enough as well too.

You’ve obviously worked and been part of other bigger companies as well. Once you kinda say like, okay, this is a definition of growth hacking. If we go through it chronologically, let’s say a company’s listening, they wanna experiment with this.

What are the next steps to kinda figure out what to focus on or like where. What is the next step after that definition is established?

Sean: Well, it’s gonna really depend on the company. If it’s a really small company who’s just gotten to product market fit, so they’ve validated the customers really love their product, then it’s not that hard, then it’s really taking…

Just essentially you don’t have a bunch of entrenched habits across the different teams and all the perspectives and maybe different goals if they’re sort of a local silos.

So in that case you’re just really looking at… And for what it’s worth, that’s where a majority of my experience has been. In these kind of day zero product market fit opportunities, where you could kind of build it right from the beginning, and it’s just so much easier when you do that.  

So in that case, you know, maybe I am initially looking at customer acquisition, bring enough people in, see what they do, and really start to try to understand where we’re losing people. Is it, you have a hard time getting them to even sign up, then maybe it’s that kind of value proposition type stuff.

Usually what I found is that the biggest opportunity for really fast improvement is, how do we get them experiencing value very quickly? So that’s the drop off and that’s… Even for a more established company that’s kind of that no man’s land that sits between a marketing team and a product team.

Who’s shaping that first user experience? Where you’re trying to figure out, what’s the first thing they do when they get into the product? It’s a really kinda messy handoff a lot of times.

But if you can define what’s that first thing that someone does, where they really get a great experience with the product, and how can we accelerate the delivery of that first thing. Then you’re much more likely to drive long term retention on those people.

Of course you still need to build in a habit and get them using the product and there’s a ton more execution that you can do down the line from there. But that’s I think a drop off point where, you know, I had one company early in my career, LogMeIn in the early days where I was…

I mean that’s where a lot of this kind came from for me, I was banging my head against the wall, out developing channels and getting people to sign up for a product of which over 90% of the people never used the product even once.

And so I was getting pushed to try to scale my marketing budget, but I had this really hard time getting a return on investment. If people don’t use the product, they’re not gonna buy the product. And so we had a premium model so it added additional challenges there.

But when we really focused on how do we dial in that first user experience, actually get people past the hurdles of using the product, we were able to get about a 1000% increase in the sign up to usage rate.

And that gave me the ability to go back and… Channels that had previously failed, now we’re hugely profitable and I could scale a budget that was sort of stuck at about $10,000 a month, and I could go back and invest in those same channels now, scaled to over $1 million a month.

But with a really fast payback on investments. So, it’s this whole interdependence of all of those steps in the customer journey that are really critical. 

Johnathan: And it’s so funny ’cause it goes to your personality like right, being curious and telling like, hey, I can do great in all these macro metrics from a conversion rate could be looking awesome.

The cost per acquisition for these conversions are great and I can get that better and better. But like none of that matters unless we as a company are… You talk a lot about what’s called a North Star, right?

Sean: Yeah.

Johnathan: And like that’s something for a company to define together. When they kinda have all the departments working together for one bigger thing and we’ll go into that.

Sean: Exactly!

Johnathan: So it took that to kind of ask the questions and just be playing devil’s advocate within your company. And I think a lot of people, you know, not saying that like you at all were an equity holder, you might’ve been or somebody who had like a bigger payoff.

But a lot of people that are like employees, they just kinda like check the boxes and they do what they’re asked to do, but don’t think of like the end result. And I think that’s changing. I think us marketers can ask tougher questions like, Hey, we can hit our goals, are we set?

Even as an agency, but the client can still be unhappy or the ROI might have changed or their closing rate might’ve decreased. And so therefore, we’re not looking at it holistically.

So I think the bigger learning lesson too, is that growth hacking and growth and marketing, even marketing by itself should never be looked at by itself. It is always inter… What do you call it? Dependent on each other as well too.

And I think from a foundational perspective, I’m really happy you nailed that home for the people listening because I don’t think they can start doing that, they’ll say, Hey, we gotta launch experiments and we gotta go fast tempo.

But then they forget about their North Star. They forget about the execution. Like all those other things that are obviously vital as well too, so–

Sean: Exactly! And what it ultimately comes down to is that if you’re not driving sustainable growth, then what’s the point? If you can drive this kind of flash in the pan growth, that looks great and you get a bunch of pats on the back and you even have return on investment, but then it collapses six months later, then what was the point?

And so the only way to really drive sustainable growth is to deliver value. If customers are getting value, then they’re gonna come back for more value.

But if the value is not very strong for them or they’re gonna probably go back to their old habits and old ways of solving whatever problem it is that your product solves. And, you’re not gonna retain customers and you’re not gonna be able to grow long term. So that’s that.

When you take that value, as I touched on before, everyone in the company plays a role in delivering value. And you can really focus on accelerating value through testing and learning. And when you do that, you’re gonna be able to drive more sustainable growth.

Johnathan: And what you mentioned too, I think from the outside is that, what has gotten growth hacking like a bad reputation are those flash in the pan tactics that are not sustainable, right? Like they might have a loop.

A lot of people talk about like the listings on Craigslist for Airbnb. They don’t do that anymore. I assume they don’t do that. Individual hosts might be doing that. I don’t know. But those are examples where like they’re definitely important and you should still explore that.

And of course, if you can’t control the future of Craigslist and what they decide to do, that can change. Anything can change, even if you think it’s sustainable today. But I’m really happy you touched on the sustainability aspect too.

Sean: Yeah, and just as I mentioned, how I described it was in early stage companies, you know, customers zero opportunities, you don’t have a lot of the challenges of the organization.

I approach it very differently when it’s a company with 100 employees or 1,000 or 5,000 and that’s actually where a lot of my focus is these days, and where I start with those companies is very different from where I would start with a customer zero opportunity.

Johnathan: Let’s talk about how you approach the ones that are already like somewhat established. They might be 10 employees, 50 employees, 100 employees, or more like you mentioned. How do you approach that?

Like let’s say somebody’s listening and they’re in a company right now, they’re itching to get better at marketing which is, I’m assuming why they listen to this podcast, and they wanna bring more value to their bosses and their counterparts, anything like that. How do you approach that?

Sean: Yeah, so how most people try to approach it is they maybe read my book and they see, okay, more testing equals more growth, and that principle is right. So they go out and they start trying to run lots of tests.

And they try to run high impact tests, but they’re fighting a battle every time they run a test, they’re trying to convince someone to give them the resources or give them their permission to use their own resources. And you’re not gonna run very many tests if three quarters of your energy is just fighting to be able to run the test. 

So, what I do with more established companies is, we take a step back from the day to day operations and I get everyone in the room. So that’s what I’m going in a few days to Lithuania to work with a company on this. And you get the entire company in the room for a day.

Maybe not everyone for the full day, but part of the people in the morning. And then the more hands on people in the afternoon and get them actually talking about… You know, the one thing they can usually all agree on is, why are we in business?

They get so focused on their siloed goals, that it’s really hard, just more communication, it’s not gonna be enough. So, get them back to the one thing they can agree on. Why are we in business? What’s the value our customers get from this product?

And then working your way up from there. How do we measure this value? How does our product actually drive that value? What does that engine look like that drive that value from? What are the channels that drive acquisition?

Why do people wanna try it? What’s the promise that we give in our messaging? What’s that first experience that delivers on the value? How do we build the habit? How do we monetize?

But just once you start to get agreement on what is it we’re trying to accomplish, how do we accomplish that? How do we measure progress? That comes back to that North Star metric that you talked about. Now you start to have a common language and a common view on the business across these different teams. 

Then I start to talk about testing. Then I start to talk about, okay, every single thing that we’re doing, there’s a better way to do it. Here’s this test learned process that’s been so effective on the marketing side.

When we start to apply it to the full business, we can start to really crank up growth in this business. Now everyone’s coming at it from a common understanding. And then they can start to agree on, why is testing important.

They can say what their worries are and whatever their fears are that would prevent them from testing, then ultimately we set some objectives and then start working on that testing habit.

I tell people they’re kinda looking at it through the same lens of what is it that we’re trying to do and how do we measure progress. It’s just really hard to get that testing habit dialed in and really making an impact.

Johnathan: Do you feel like… So, I’ve seen like this, completely side note. I’ve seen like growth hacking agencies, for example.

And it seems like that can be a kind of a challenge ’cause they’re already on the outside of the company where you’re mentioning the fundamentals of being really good at what you do is if you have buy in from everybody. There’s a common understanding from everybody.

What are your thoughts on those kinda agencies?

Sean: Yeah, I haven’t looked at all of them, obviously. Some of them probably have figured out some things that work pretty well.

But I think most of the time when someone calls themselves a growth hacking agency, they’re a marketing agency with the idea of like, let’s put a different name on it. Maybe, get some other kind of attention.

And so, particularly in Europe, I mean most of the time when people in Europe are talking about growth hacking, it’s changing over time, my book’s actually in 16 different languages and so people are kinda getting a little better understanding on it.

But most of the time it’s just clever marketing, when they’re talking about growth hacking, that’s what they mean. But I think for an agency to really be effective you need… It’s not just an agency, it’s really for a growth team to be effective, for head of growth to be effective, you need the organization to be on board.

And so, if all of these things were done, then I think an agency can come in and actually be somewhat effective doing these things. I even found myself, for what it’s worth, it’s been a fairly iterative process for me over the years.

I was going into companies and spending six months and I found that for the first sort of three weeks I… Especially for established companies, people were pretty excited that I was there.

Yeah, I wrote a book, I’ve got a good track record on some companies and they expect me to go in and and really, you know, work my magic and drive some growth in the business.

And after those first three weeks, when the honeymoon period ends, I’m just another pain in the butt. Telling them do things they don’t wanna do. And I was banging my head against the wall the same way anyone else was.

And so that’s really where I’ve kinda taken that step back and said, all right, how do I actually lay out? Get people actually executing growth then on the same page.

Johnathan: Right, yeah. As humans and our habits, I can see that. ‘Cause I think that’s like the magic time period about three weeks of doing something before you turn into a habit.

So I’m sure you have people who love you even more. But then like you mentioned, people who are like, now Sean is still here, why is he still here? Crazy!

Sean: Yeah, exactly! And if I’m not gonna be successful with it, what’s the point? And so one of the things that I’ve found is that, it was taking companies five or six months to come up with that North Star metric. And it doesn’t help, if you don’t have a shared metric, it’s really hard to work together to grow that metric. 

And so, they didn’t need to take six months. I can have someone have a working metric in a half hour, if I get all the right people in the room. And so that’s again part of the process that I’ve kinda dialed in, where at least I set up the situation where they can be more successful.

And then with some coaching and help along the way, then they’re much more likely to be successful over time. But you gotta take that step out of the day to day. It’s a different way of executing the business and it goes beyond growth.

I think it intersects pretty closely with kind of the lean startup and kinda the agile movement that you see. It’s this idea that everything in the business, from how your product creates value, to how you introduce that value to people, is all based on assumptions until you prove that they work and then everything that you’re doing can work even better through experimentation and learning. 

Johnathan: Right, absolutely! So let’s say you had the buy in, the honeymoon phase starts, people love you, they’re excited. How do you go about setting the North Star metric? Do you do that before you decide then, like what the priority list of testing is? You define that.

Sean: Yeah, absolutely! So first thing I do is, we dial in on what is the value that someone gets from the product. And then the North Star metric is really about trying to quantify units of that value delivered. Which gets kinda confusing. So I think sometimes, just examples–

Johnathan: I was gonna ask, do you have examples?

Sean: Yeah.

Johnathan: Let’s do it.

Sean: Right. So like for Uber, when their head of growth went in, their first head of growth, Ed Baker went in, he had just left from a head of international growth at Facebook. He went into Uber and said, we need a North Star metric.

So he sat down with the CEO and they came up with weekly rides. They know every time a ride is delivered on Uber, a driver gets a benefit and a rider gets a benefit.

And so quantifying the total number of rides that they’re delivering each week, means that they’re driving more and more value in the system and then they’re much more likely to have sustainability in revenue growth.

So app downloads might be something that someone would look at before that. But we all have a ton of apps on our phones that we no longer use. So clearly, that’s one metric. Similar to that would be Airbnb with their night booked metrics. So they’re just counting the number of nights that are booked.

Facebook, Slack, a bunch of companies that are kind of more user based systems are just monthly active users and just knowing that, the more users on the system, the more value everyone else gets. And so they’re just trying to grow the users.

A company like Acorns, one of our local Orange County. Good companies here. They’re looking at their active investors. You know, the more people that are active investors on the platform. I think they just hit seven million active investors.

And so, I did a great podcast interview with Hila Qu from there. She used to work with me at GrowthHackers, and it’s amazing what they’re doing to grow that business, but having an active investors number that everyone is growing.

And then what’s really nice for them, that also then maps to their mission of trying to make millennial and just younger people become more active investors in their future.

And so, it becomes a lot more, something that people can really get excited and aligned behind when you’re making progress on mission, you’re making progress on value and so that’s really where the North Star metric is just getting everyone on the same page around a goal that everyone can kinda celebrate that success together. 

Johnathan: I like how… I’m gonna put you on the spot, in a good way ’cause I’m gonna be selfish and ask you for help with our agency. Not once did you mention revenue, for example. And I feel like that’s like the standard for so many companies and how they measure success.

But that doesn’t mean that the other person who paid for that revenue to be accumulated actually got value yet. So for, let’s say us being an agency, the things that I’m thinking, off at the top of my head, is that we have like, you know, amount of new clients on board, that we have total client count, we have revenue.

But one thing that I’m leaning towards, after hearing your examples, is like the percentage of quarterly goals hit. So we set goals on the quarter for our clients and there’s a percentage that we track. Would that be your North Star? What do you think?

Sean: I don’t know exactly what your North Star would be. But it’s probably similar to what my North Star would be. And for me, my North Star, I mean I’m more of like, I’m trying to drive an inflection in businesses.

So for me it’s the number of companies that I connect with in the course of the year where I make a measurable change in their growth trajectory that is sustained over time. And so, that tells me that…

You know, I could do it on revenue for example. I mean we’ve had snake oil salesmen for years and you know, for hundreds of years like, revenue is something, you can trick people into paying you money.

Even on your side, that’s the agency side, there’s been all kinds of agencies that over promise and under deliver and–

Johnathan: 100%

Sean: If you’re really good at sales and acquiring new customers you can continue to grow over time. But if you’re really focused on helping clients reach their objectives, I think that’s a good one that you said, like hitting their quarterly objectives, then you’re providing real value to them over time. 

Johnathan: Right, for sure! Okay, we are gonna change some things. Stone, I’m looking at you, we’re gonna note that down. Thank you Sean.

So, let’s say that we define the North Star metric by your definition and like what you wanna see from it. Like you actually approve it. Let’s say it is the percentage of quarterly goals hit for our clients, for example.

Is the next set then defining what you prioritize based off a framework of prioritizing these tests? How does that work?

Sean: I wouldn’t even say that’s the next step. The next step is a shared understanding of how your business grows that metric. 

Johnathan: Okay, I got it.

Sean: So, getting on the same page around how the different pieces of your business fit together. And when everyone kind of is looking through the same lens of, okay.

This is what someone does to get value the first time. This is why they keep coming back. This is how we generate revenue. You know, some of the things are really easy, right? It’s easy for everyone to agree, this is where our customers come from.

Johnathan: Right.

Sean: You know, sometimes it’s easy. Attribution is not always easy. And then ultimately this is why they keep coming back. There might be some disagreement there. So being able to find alignment on that, whether it’s through additional research or whatever it is, then kind of move from opinions into facts there.

But ultimately when you have now the same framework of how the business grows the North Star metric, now it’s about finding those high leverage opportunities and starting to run experiments to drive improvement in those high leverage opportunities. 

Ultimately, the goal is to accelerate your North Star metric, but it’s really easy to say, okay, let’s accelerate the North Star metric, go! It’s not gonna work just to will it into existence. And so one of the things that I always recommend is to quantify the number of tests that you’re running. There’s no improvement without a test. There’s no learning without a test.

And so, by quantifying the number of tests that you’re running, at least you know you’re driving the inputs that are gonna lead to a better output. But then obviously, if you can, if you can run tests that are focused on the highest leverage opportunities based on a true understanding. 

So looking at data, looking at qualitative feedback of what’s going on. And then it’s about creative problem solving and understanding. You know, why are people signing up for this product and not using it? Or why do they use it once and never come back? Are they the wrong people? Is it the wrong first experience?

A lot of that’s gonna be sort of guesses and then you get smarter over time as you run the experiments to try to drive improvement on the numbers.

Johnathan: Right, absolutely! Okay, so there’s that. What happens next then?

Do you take them through, like listing things out and then you shuffle them later and prioritize them later or how… ‘Cause sometimes there’s like that ICE framework, you know, from a CRO perspective, yeah.

Sean: The biggest thing that I’m doing again, like the actual action is to run more tests. And so, how do you do that? That’s where I generally recommend a growth team or whether that’s kind of an Ad Hoc team that comes together every week from different functions or a dedicated team for testing. There’s lots of different ways you can slice that.

But having a weekly meeting where you’re getting together and you’re deciding, what are the next set of tests that we’re gonna run? And then part of that decision process is having people ahead of time, pitch ideas for tests to run. And then generally uncovering those ideas through a backlog of a lot of potential ideas that you’ve looked at over time.

And that’s where that kind of ICE scoring comes into account. So ICE score is impact, confidence and ease. So kinda looking at each idea on, if this is successful? How much impact could it potentially drive? How confident am I that it’s going to be successful? And then how easy is it to run the test?

And so if it scores on all three of those, then that’s probably a pretty good test to run. But beyond just looking on an individual idea, that’s where I also was saying like finding those high leverage opportunities.

So, if you can kinda set up buckets of ideas that relate to something that you’ve really said, gosh, if we can drive a doubling or a tripling at this point in our customer journey, or if we can double or triple top a funnel ’cause everything else is working really well, then you’re much more likely to really move the needle on that North Star metric.

Part of the tests you’re even looking at each week are based on, do they map to a high leverage opportunity? And then, do you have a good scoring system to be able to say, let’s run the highest potential impact tests first that are hopefully easier to execute than some other tests.

And by the end of the day, you don’t really know what’s gonna work and what’s not gonna work. And so the biggest indicator that I’ve found is just that the more tests you run, the more likely you’re gonna be able to accelerate growth.

And you do wanna get order over time about running the right ideas. But I think for most people, they get so obsessive over, you know, let’s run the perfect test and let’s not… You know, they kinda freeze themselves.

As opposed to just saying, every week, let’s do lots of additional things, let’s do them in really kind of small bite size way of testing things. Well, kind of a minimum viable tests to get some signal.

If it works, polish it up, double down, make it something that’s ultimately a well polished part of the experience. You gotta just dial in that learning. And that learning happens when you try new stuff.  

And so, there’s a very rigorous scientific process for trying that stuff. But more importantly, it’s holding yourself accountable. Are we doing new things and learning from those things? 

Johnathan: Right, absolutely! And like you said too, like everybody else has their other responsibilities. And this should not be looked at as an afterthought and be like, oh yeah, shoot, I gotta meet on a weekly basis and follow up and update some stuff.

You mentioned like a growth team or having somebody dedicated to oversee this is a good idea.

Sean: Yeah!

Johnathan: You signed a book for me, of your book and I wanna give you a shout out too, because we’ve had another author on the show. His name is Joey Coleman, “Never Lose A Customer Again”. So many takeaways from that book.

I want people to understand where they can go buy your book and what’s it called?

Sean: It’s called “Hacking Growth“. And, yeah it’s just Amazon’s usually the–

Johnathan: Nice!

Sean: The fastest ,easiest way to get it. But with time, we’ll have it in audio, we’ll have it on Kindle, we’ll have it as a printed book.

And yeah, it’s definitely a, I wrote the book with Morgan Brown and it’s all about just kinda laying all the stuff out that I’ve talked about.

Probably the biggest thing that I’ve realized since writing the book is that, you know, the bigger the company, the harder it is to put in those recommendations.

So some of the things that I think are unique to this conversation are just, how do you get over that organizational inertia that holds people back from really being able to adopt this process. 

Johnathan: I can see that. Well, thank you so much, Sean. And also your… I would say your… What is it called when people graduate? The alumni of GrowthHackers are doing a lot of cool things. I know Morgan Brown now works at Facebook as well too, and you’re going to Lithuania.

Sean: He does, yeah.

Johnathan: I don’t know who’s got the better deal? But I’m thankful for having you on the show.

Sean: Yeah, I know, it’s awesome! And a lot of the things as I mentioned like the Acorns interview and some of the others on my “Breakout Growth” podcast is that, that’s my big passion project right now.

Just taking these super fast growing companies and trying to understand how they’re doing it. You know, sometimes they’re following what I’m talking about and sometimes they’re not. And there’s something to learn from every single company.

Johnathan: So listen to that as well, buy Sean’s book and Morgan’s book. And then also “Breakout Growth” is the name of your podcast. Awesome!

Sean: Yep, awesome!

Johnathan: Thank you, Sean. We’ll talk soon.

Sean: Thank you, Jonathan. All right.

Johnathan: All right, bye.